Cult expert Dr. Steven Hassan has been working with a MAGA supporter whose children had pushed her away as a result of her devotion to President Donald Trump. Hassan, who left the Unification Church in the 1970s and has spent the decades since studying coercive control in books such as "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and "The Cult of Trump," now works with families navigating exactly this kind of rupture. The family's exchanges on their viral podcast, "The Necessary Conversation," have become something of a guide for people hoping to draw relatives out of the world of Trumpism.

In a recent discussion, Chad Kultgen, his sister Haley Popp, and their mother, Mary Lou Kultgen, walked through some of her policy priorities in this election. She said she hates what U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) is doing and wants the agency out of communities. She wants universal healthcare. She also wants the United States out of the war in Iran. By all accounts, she sounds like a Bernie Sanders-style Democrat. Yet she is being persuaded by the GOP over the idea that boys are playing in girls' sports.

One psychiatrist explained that much of this comes from a culture of fear that MAGA has built and continues to enforce through elections.

Dr. Hassan attempted to mediate a conversation among the Kultgen family using tried-and-true methods, reassuring both sides that they clearly love each other. He walked through his list of characteristics for people who are in a cult — the framework known as the BITE model, which examines a group's control over behavior, information, thought, and emotional responses. Mary Lou explained that she sleeps a solid nine hours a night and does not really think about recruiting for the GOP, so she did not believe she was in a cult.

Hassan explained that the characteristics differ depending on the group. He pointed to people obsessed with a particular sports star or musician: they wear the clothing, attend all the events, become good friends with others in the group, spend time on message boards and in groups talking about their fandom, and it becomes a huge part of their life.

"It's a culture. It's a thing, right? But it's not authoritarian. It's not asking for dependence or obedience Hassan explained.

"So you could say I'm in a thing. I'm in a thing," the mother agreed.

Hassan continued by referencing material from his book. "There's another graphic in the book. I don't have a handy thing to hold up, but of all of the different influences over Trump and all of the media circles of how it becomes a silo," he said. "The point for me is that we're living at a time, this is my thing, you'll read about this in 'The Cult of Trump,' Mary Lou, of psychological warfare by enemies of America. Russia, China, Iran. And I've studied this stuff."

"So, Iran has Hamas proxy group to do its bad deeds. So there's this whole machinations by billionaire people who have their own power agendas. And for those dictators, democracy is a threat to them. They don't want free speech. They don't want — they don't want gay rights and trans rights and indigenous rights and women's rights. They want to be in total control. So for us growing up in America that we love though we went and fought the freaking Nazis, of their authoritarianism. And now we're seeing people in power doing the 'sieg heil' and we're seeing — and Chad was showing some of the imagery of Nazism, right?" Hassan said.

His message for everyone who cut off family and friends because they went full Trump: it is time to reach out again. The advice tracks Hassan's longstanding argument that shaming and estrangement tend to entrench someone's commitment to a group, while warm, sustained contact preserves the personal ties that make questioning possible.

"Just say, 'I miss you.' And if they say, 'Well, you cursed me out, and you didn't invite me to Thanksgiving for three years.' You apologize," he said. "I know a lot of people [are] like, 'I'm not going to apologize,' but this is my advice. Apologize and just say, 'Listen, I still care about you and let's just work on reestablishing a warm connection, remembering the good days, common ground and let's share perspectives. Something is important to you, share it with me. I'll watch it with you. We'll talk about it. Then my turn, I'll share something with you,'" he said.

In the end, he said, "The truth will come out."

The conversation then turned to the assassination attempt on Trump and whether it was real. Hassan was able to guide Mary Lou toward the understanding that it could have been staged. He said the real conversation about these issues lies in "reality testing" — weighing claims against verifiable evidence — and exploring propaganda with a logical, non-emotional mind.